KEF 104/2 (5)구형과 신형 차이 및 잘못된 정보

2013/04/03 - [스피커/스피커] - KEF 104/2 (1) 3/5의 중역유닛이 장착된 괴물 스피커(1986~)

2014/03/31 - [스피커/스피커] - KEF 104/2 (2) 앰프 매칭편

2014/04/01 - [스피커/스피커] - KEF104/2 (3) 큐브(kube)는 필수인가?

2014/07/16 - [스피커/스피커] - KEF104/2 (4) 해외 유저들의 앰프추천

KEF 104/2 구형과 신형 차이에 검증되지 않은 잘못된 정보가 많이 있는 듯 하여, 리서치 돌입.

1. KEF 104/2 신형은 트위터 유닛이 최상급기인 T33 에서 T29로 다운 그레이드 됐다 ?? ==> X

( KEF 사의 T29 유닛이 아니라, 대체품인 MDT29 라는 것)

 고역이 다소 답답한 맛이 있다. 오히려 구형이 낫더라? 는 말이 있는데... 정말?? ===> X

===> KEF 유닛 연혁뿐아니라, 세계 어디에도 KEF T-29 라는 유닛은 안보이는데..... 이건 뭐지???

고역이 답답한 것은 KEF 104/2 에 채택된 T33 트위터의 고질적인 결함이다. 즉, T33 트위터 안쪽에 ferrofluid 라는 자성을 가진 액체가 말라서 그런 것이다. 어쩔 수 없다. 트위터를 새로 사서 교체하든지, 자가수리하든지.( 유 ebay 에서 쉽게 구할 수 있고, 영국 kef 유저들은 익히 알고있는 이슈다. 10년 이상되거나, 오랜기간 사용안하고 방치하면, T33 트위터 안쪽의 자성 액체(ferrofluid)가 말라서 소리를 못내고 답답해진다.

2. 신형 중에서도 후기형은  다시 T33a 로 바뀌면서, 상급/후속기인 107/2 와 같은 트위터를 적용했다. 그래서, 가격도 대폭 올랐다??

=== > T33a 과 T33 의 구분은 개량 또는 상/하위 개념이 아니다. T33 트위터중 각 스피커에 탑재된 부품번호일 뿐이고, T33A 에는 문제를 일으키는 ferrofluid 액체를 사용하지 않았기 때문에, 처음 만들었던 T33A 로 돌아갔다. KEF104/2 에 탑재된 T33 sp1191 버전은 ferrofluid 물질을 사용했고, 고장문제로 금방 단종됐기 때문에, 소리는 좋지만 실패작이라고 할 수 있다.

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1.  KEF 신형에 T29 가 탑재됐다고? 으잉?? KEF 연혁에 T29 라는 트위터 자체가 없다. 뭐지??

==> KEF 드라이브 유닛 확인..

 KEF 공식 사이트 ) http://www.kef.com/html/en/explore/about_kef/kef_drive_units/index.html

일부 신형에는 과연 T33(a) 이 아닌, 답답한 고역을 가진 T-29 란 유닛이 채용됐는가?

국내 동호회에서 종종 언급되는 T29 트위터라는게 모렐사의 MDT 29  를 말하는게 아닐까?

104/2 신형 초기시절에 T-29 가 탑재됐다는 오디오파일의 글만 봐서 뭐라고 할 수는 없으나....  리서치 결과로는 오해이지 않을까 싶다.

누군가 KEF 104/2 에 탑재됐다는 KEF T-29 라는 유닛 사진 본 사람이 있나 모르겠다...

여러 키워드로 검색해보면, 해외에서는 KEF104/2에 탑재된 T33(a) 대체 유닛으로 Morel사의 MDT29 라는 유닛을 쓰고 있음을 쉽게 알 수 있다. 104/2 에 탑재된 T33 트위터 SP1191 은 (1986)에 단종됐기 때문에, 대체품으로 MDT 29를 사용했다. 그런데, 꿩대신 닭의 대체품이 아니라   T33 트윗의 업그레이드 / 튜닝용으로 빈번히 사용됐음을 확인할 수 있다.  구글링 해보길 바람! ( 오리지날인 T33 이 더 좋더라. MD T29가 더 좋더라. 호불호 글들을 볼 수 있다.)

2. KEF의 최상급 트위터 T33A 가 T33 의 개량버전이라고?????

T33a 는 1979 년 최초 생산됐고, 1980년부터 8옴버전으로 sp 1074 T33A 라는 부품명으로 KEF 스피커에 탑재되기 시작했다.
이후 1984년부터 T33 유닛은 4옴버전 SP1191 이라는 부품명으로 KEF 104/2 에 탑재됐다.
1986년 T33은 sp1210 부품명으로 107, 103/3, 102 에 탑재.

이 설명에서 보면, T33A 는 T33 의 개량/업그레이드 유닛이 아니라는 점이다. T33A 는  T33 시리즈중 최초 버전이자 하나의 버전일 뿐인데, 뒤에 발매된 T33 시리즈들이 ferrofluid 이슈가 있어서, 다시 T33A 를 탑재했다.

KEF  T33 시리즈

1) SP1074 T33A (1979, 8Ohm) - ferrorfluid 를 사용하지 않았다.
    : Caprice II(1981), Carlton II (1981), CarltonIII(1983), Celeste IV(1981), Concord IV(1980), CS3, 5, 7(1981), 103.2(1980),105.4(1980)

2) SP1191 (1984-1986, 4ohm) 

3) SP1210 (1986, 4ohm)
     : 107(1986), 103/3(1986), 102(1986)

if you own the T-33A (or sp1074 tweeter), you DO NOT need this service. That specific version did not use the fluid.  

T33 의 ferrofluid 사용 버전 클릭

http://www.hifiloudspeakers.info/speakertalk/viewtopic.php?t=1604&sid=eeaaeba30874eeafc0d7efde93687648

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*** 이런 여러가지 말이 나오는 근본적인 이유는 KEF 104/2 에 탑재된 T33 트윗 자체가 가진 결함이다. 104/2 에 탑재된 T33 트위터에는  Ferrorfluid 라는 자성액체(magentic liquid)가 사용됐는데, 그 물질이 마르기 때문에, 고음이 빡빡하게 들릴 때는 트위터를 분해 후, 말라버린 ferrorfluid를 제거하고, 리필해줘야 한다. (이런 문제로, T33 sp1191 버전이 단종됐을 것으로 추정.  뒤에 107/2 에 채택된 T33A 는 ferrorfluid 이슈가 개선됐다고 한다.) 

구글에서 " kef 104/2  ferrofluid " 란 키워드로 검색해보면, 유튜브 동영상 및 관련 이슈들이 무더기로 튀어 나온다.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/83650-kef-t33-tweeter-replacement-104-2-a.html

as many KEF owners with ferro-fluid cooled tweeters know, the gel hardens over 20 years and basically renders the tweeters useless.

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 so, i bought a pair of Morel MDT30 tweeters. hopefully they will mate well. wimslow audio uses the MDT29, but the folks at madisound said the 30 will fit the same and sound even better.

그래서, (KEF104/2 에 T33 트위터 대체용으로 ) Morel 사의 MDT30 트위터를 샀는데, 다행히 매우 잘 맞았다.    윔슬로우 오디오는MDT29 트위터를 사용하지만, 매디사운드 사람들은 MDT 30 트위터가 딱 맞고, 소리도 더 좋다고 한다.

*** kef 104/2 고음 수리. 고역이 답답할 때 수리법

이렇게 하고, 공임비 한 20만원 받나?? ㅠ 집에서 고치자.

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만약 고역이 답답하다면, 그것은 T33 트위터의 ferrofluid 문제다. 몇 년전에 용산에 있는 한음전자 사장님한테 kef 104/2 한쪽 고음 안나온다니까 단 칼에 알더라. 트위터에 액체같은게 말라서, kef 104/2 는 한번씩 수리해줘야 한다고. ... ( kef 104/2 엄청 무거운데...... ㅠ )

결론적으로, 구형과 신형(바이와이어링)중에 택하라면, 당연히 신형을 택하겠고,

그 보다는 5년 안에 정비 받은 스피커를 사겠다.

뭐 내가 리서치한 결과가 억측이라면, 누군가 이야기 해주면, 매우 감사!!!

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KEF104/2 에 채택된 T33 트위터 수리 킷 ebay 판매자 글.

IMPORTANT!!!!!!  PLEASE understand that this ad is for the ferro fluid cleaning/replacement SERVICE of a single KEF t-33 tweeter and not for the actual tweeter itself.  Pictures are for reference only!!!!!!! If you bid and expect tweeters, you will pay for the relist fees. Please understand. Important new shipping changes below as well. ****Please read!!!!!

See our recent testimonials below.....

The T33 was used in simply dozens of Kef speakers. Most notably the "1-oh" series. The 102, 103, 104, 105 and 107 series. many of the coda models, etc. PLEASE NOTE.....if you own the T-33A (or sp1074 tweeter), you DO NOT need this service. That specific version did not use the fluid.  

After purchasing a pair of Meridian M30's and being disappointed in the sound I remembered as being more/less amazing in 1988, I began to research why. apparently the ferrofluid in the original kef T-33's notoriously dries out leaving all of these amazing tweets quite handicapped by today's standards. I began looking for replacements but realized quickly that most any NOS T33 was still the same age as mine and would certainly have ferrofluid in near as bad of condition. I have been an accomplished audio tech since around 1986 so I decided to research the potential  repair of these tweeters. After obtaining the hard to find (and expensive) ferrofluid and diving in, I was able to very successfully remove the actual tweeter, its diaphragm, thoroughly clean the voice coil former, the magnet's gap, replace the ferrofluid, re-align, and successfully re-install the faceplate. The difference in sound was mind-boggling! The tweeters degrade so GRADUALLY over time you don't really notice until things are simply awful.  

It is a tedious process but I have decided there must be hundreds of thousands of customers in need of this service given soooo many kef 33's in the field. Feel free to send them to me and they will return in amazing condition. I am still stunned at the difference it has made in my meridians. 

I MUST be very, very clear that I do not repair blown or damaged diaphragms. This is strictly for those with T33's that just no longer have good midrange or overall volume and need new ferrofluid. All T-33's have this issue as all are over 10 years old at this point. As of August of 2012 I found my first non-repairable tweeter sent to us. It was part of a pair and the mate was as easy as pie. The second tweet's voice coil former literally separated from its diaphragm due to either a bad adhesive job originally, slight overheating, or just a really bad hardening of the ferro fluid in its gap. Regardless, in these VERY rare instances I still must be clear that we cannot cover this issue. I trust you all understand. We have had a great number of you request a kit for re-installation so we now have the 4 pcs. of heat shrink and appropriate amount of cardas silver/copper solder available for you guys upon request for $6 per kit. Just be sure and mention to me when ordering or add to your paypal payments, etc. 

We now have a procedure for removal, shipping and reinstall available for you guys below.....

1-Removal. Most all T-33 types were provided by kef with their wires soldered directly on their terminals which makes for a bit of a challenge here. If you are proficient with soldering and de-soldering various audio terminals, you should be in good shape as we will simply be cutting the wires and re-soldering them together (unless you wish to be super anal retentive and demand to replace as original). If you do so, you do so at your own risk. The tiny voice coil wire which is soldered to the other side of the “hard to access” terminals, is VERY easy to damage with too much heat, physical stress, etc. Trust us here….if you do not have great experience soldering terminals, do not attempt the original terminals at all! Part of the issue here is the magnet’s desire to pull your soldering iron’s tip into its strong field whilst you are trying to work! You will simply want to release the tweeter by removing its 4 outer-most screws. Then, cut the 2 wire as far from the tweeter as you can while feeling comfortable re-soldering the existing wire when they have been returned to you. Various KEF models will vary tremendously how much slack you might find speaker to speaker. Be careful here! You may also want to attach some large tape of a pull-string, etc. to ensure the leads do not disappear down into your cabinet too far if released. This can be very difficult if you forget. Again, some models have almost no slack while others offer a mile. Be careful! 

2 -If you are sending the pair (which you should do no matter), the two tweets can be placed face to face and the domes will not touch. However, I like to place a couple of small pc’s of thin cardboard between them around the edges with a few strips about 3” by .5” (7.5cm by 12mm) just to prevent the faceplates from rubbing together in shipment. Then tightly bind the pair of tweeters by “wrapping” them with packing tape all the way around by a few layers. If shipping only one tweeter, feel free to attach a small plastic cup from say a restaurant that serves ketchup etc. to the front of the tweet and secure with packing tape. Or, of course, you can cut a hard pc. Of cardboard the same size as the tweeter’s face and then wrap with packing tape as well around the magnet. Wrap the package further with some bubble-pak and then ship to us with as much additional safety as you see fit. We recommend a few inches all the way around in bubble-pak and then at least 4 more inches of packing peanuts all the way around. 

3 -Reinstallation- You will simply be stripping back about 1” of the original KEF pvc insulation about 1” on both ends. Most KEF’s used blue and brown for their colors. Just be sure to match these carefully. Be sure to slip on a pc. Of 1.5” heat shrink tubing before twisting the two leads together if you are insulating by heat shrink. One can use electrician’s tape but I do not recommend. Please use your solder of choice with a nice pencil iron preferably 20-45 watts with a nice quality silver solder or decent quality 60/40 solder as that is what Kef used. We recommend cardas solder or some decent silver content solder for the higher end models. Solder kits with the 4 heat shrink pcs. And cardas solder are available for a nominal fee. Once neatly twisted and soldered back together, slide the heat shrink boot over your new solder joint and carefully heat the shrink with a heat gun, lighter, etc. until it has adequately shrunk the insulation down to the wire. Once complete, simply line the tweeter up by ensuring the kef logo is in its correct location and reinstall the tweeter flush to the baffle. Gradually tighten the 4 outer screws and be ready to be blown away at the sound of your old kef tweeters now that they sound original again.

Thanks for choosing this service. If your tweeters are in good condition and can be rebuilt without issue, you will be amazed at the improvement. My best, Tim

****VERY recently USPS has imposed the requirement for us to hand deliver items to certain Itn'l countries. Russia, Cuba, Iraq, Iran, Afhganistan, etc. just to name a few of what is coming. This required about 45 minutes of my time. If your country is on the list, I will be forced to add a $25 fee for handling. I am so sorry but the time required as well as additional paperwork is simply a killer. I am sorry for this announcement!

Testimonials/reviews below.....

Tim, Success! Have the re-soldered tweets and  re-installed in the 104/2... 

I never knew how good these speakers really are! When they were young and fresh, i didn't have electronics or room environment to do them justice.

Compared to the Vifa domes I had temporarily tried, the sound is just more complete and "organic". I wasn't quite sure if the revitalized tweeters might sound bright/brash/sparkly/etc. as I had become accustomed to their diminished condition over the years. Instead, everything just sounds more "alive". The "bite" of brass is just right, cymbals shimmer but don't glare, and on and on... 

I now have a much better appreciation for the "voicing" that must have occurred as the 104/2 were being designed. The blend from midrange to upper midrange to treble is seamless. You were right... there's nothing like the original KEF rebuilt!

Thanks again for the next 20 years of listening pleasure! - Ted

T33 트위터 이슈와 KEF 측의 단종으로, 많은 사람들이 대체품으로 사용하는 Morel MDT29 로 교체했는데, 오리지널보다 안좋아서, 결국 T33 을 수리했고, 역시 좋았다는 글.

Tim, I've always loved the sound of my KEF 104/2 speakers: full bodied, yet clear and without coloration. Too bad the KEF T33 tweeters (type SP1191,4 Ohm version) won't last. The ferrofluid inside the T33 dries out over the years, resulting in a reduced high frequency output. Unfortunately, one of mine also went belly up (the dried out ferrofluid also reduces the cooling capacity, making the tweeters extra vulnerable). I tried to replace them, but alas, the T33 is simply not available anymore.

A lot of people on the web suggest Morel MDT29, 4 Ohm tweeters as a replacement. I ordered a pair of these on ebay, where they were advertised as being a "drop in replacement". As it turned out, they were not: I had to get a Dremel and modify the cabinets to make them fit. At first, I was satisfied with the sound, but in my memory, the original T33 sounded better, spicier and fresher. It turned out that on female voices, the Morels showed a strange coloration on sibilants.

So, when I got my hands on a pair of second hand KEF T33 tweeters, I sent them to Luminous audio for restoration. Luminous audio did a marvelous job, and within a few weeks, the tweeters were back in place, fully restored. As I write, the sparkle is back again, harpsichord sounds alive and airy, and gone is the coloration on female sibilants.

To whom it may concern: get your T33's restored by Luminous audio, and stay away from the Morels! 

regards from, 

Amsterdam

Hi Tim, It's been about a month since I reinstalled my KEF 107 tweeters. I wanted to live with them for a while before writing my findings. The first thing I noticed was that the top end seemed a bit more extended, but what I really noticed and appreciated most was when an instrument stopped playing you can hear much more of the decaying of the sound. As an example, when you hear the sound of a cymbal, it should fade off gradually. Before I had my tweeters repaired the sound would start to fade and then it would just stop because of the hardened ferro fluid. Now the sound just fades away naturally as it was meant to. The sound is so much more alive and much better balanced than it was before servicing. Thanks again for providing this invaluable service.

Regards,

Carl 

“Well worth the upgrade! Before having the ferro fluid changed, my KEF 103/3's were boring to listen to. "Lifeless" and with vocals that had high frequencies and mids separated in space. Also suffered with "side-squirts". Now, however, the vocals are point sources, livelier, without the s-s and more like how I remember them. Better sound stage. Great news all round and well with the upgrade price. Tim is very helpful and the repair service was faster than I expected. Removal and installation was simple and Tim's notes are very useful in helping you remove and reinstall the tweeters. Thanks again Tim! Best Regards, Jan”